#44. Nurturing Jesus’ Heart for Muslims in Jesus’ Church — an Advocate to Love Muslims in America

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Hello,

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and welcome back to Our Urban Voices. I'm  Chris Clayman, again hosting your normal host,

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Alfonse Javed. Last week I interviewed Alfonse  about his background growing up in Pakistan,

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how he began working in Muslim ministry,  how he turned from hatred to love towards

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Muslims. Today we're going to be talking about  Alfonse's own perspective on Muslim ministry.

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So you know a little bit more about me. I'm the  co-founder, Associate Director of Global Gates, a

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mission organization focused on reaching the ends  of the earth through global gateways. I'm also

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on the executive team at the Heart for Muslims  conference. Alfonse, you ready for another week?

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Oh, I'm excited. I had so much fun,

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and I want to invite to the listeners if you  missed the episode from last year--last week,

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please go back and listen to the  first part. It will give you some

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additional information, what's going on in  my life, and what led me to this point. Today

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my friend Chris is hosting the show and  I'm able to share my life experiences.

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Fantastic. Now for those who did

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not listen last week. Are you doing this alone or  do you have a family around that are helping you?

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Oh, I got four children actually.

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They are wonderful. I got a five-year-old boy who  can read actually and now we can't even hide our

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text when we are texting. He's just like "oh, who  are you texting?" then he reads the whole text,

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which we have to hide away from him. That's fine  because he's a smart kid, just like his dad, haha.

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You should have saved that for your joke.

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I'm just bragging about my son, you know, I'm

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so proud of them. And then I've a four years old  boy, and then I have my beautiful gorgeous little

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teeny tiny my heart and my soul. My little  gorgeous little girlies, they are twin girls. They

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will be two in...next month actually. So I have  four children and my beautiful wife Sarah has been

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with me as my wife for the last eight years, but  we have known each other for 16 years. So yeah,

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Praise God. And now, you talked about this more

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last week, but can you give a brief summary of  why you started the Heart for Muslims conference?

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So I come from Pakistani background and

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because I was persecuted so because I  was born and raised in a culture where

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Islamization was the practice.  It means that the narrative was

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intentionally changed, for which the country  was founded to what the country would be,

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according to one man by the name of Zia, and  therefore it became, you know, Talibanization that

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took place. Extremism came through, and a  bunch of these things happened in Pakistan

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that changed the face of Pakistan. Therefore, it  changed the way [the] Pakistani Muslim community

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was treating [the] Pakistani Christian community  because they didn't know any better, but only what

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was taught in the books, what and how they were  brought up, and what the media made them to be.

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So with that whole understanding, when I got here  in the United States, I felt I found myself in

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a unique position because there I was hated to  because I was Pakistani Christian. When you're

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a Christian, then the land doesn't belong to you  because Pakistan is mean longhaul Allah Muhammad

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Rasul Allah, if you are non Muslim, this country  is not yours, even though you are born raised

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generations of your parents lived here. So there  was a religious aspect of that when I got here,

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it was the other narrative where you were seen  as a Pakistani, not as a Christian. So it was

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more of a nationalist type of narrative where I  was like, "Okay, so I'm not a Christian. I'm not

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Pakistani, I'm not American. Then tell me..." that  I struggled basically struggling with my identity.

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And this caused me to, to lean toward...heavily  towards...arguing for Muslims who are being

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persecuted in the United States, especially after  9/11, and I saw a rise in hate. I conducted my own

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research for my doctorate and my doctoral degree,  and in that there was so much data available

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and I was like, I was just blown away. How much  hatred Muslims had to go through post 9/11. Not

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only Muslims, even Sikhs because they look like  Muslims or any South Asian for that matter. And

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I personally felt that as a Christian Pakistani  here. So when I became a pastor in New York City,

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Midtown, I decided to change that narrative.  I've met up with friends, especially you and

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started exploring the idea of

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how to help the church, how to bring the church together, how to promote love

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for Muslims and eliminate the fear of Islam so people can

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engage. And that's the genesis

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of heart for Muslims, because we believe Jesus  has a heart for Muslims because [they are] such

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a huge group in the world, an unreached people  group, and God calls us to love, and they are in a

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very vulnerable position, and they are the  minority of this country. So it was just clear

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that God is stirring the desire in my heart to  love Muslims and share that with other people

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and at the same time, God was doing the same  thing in the heart of many other people.

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And out of that, God has brought  forth Heart for Muslims, and

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you and I are the ones who founded this conference  with the thought that we're going to have maybe 40

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People and the first year we got 380 people, and  most of them were mission agencies and pastors.

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Which is a big deal for New York to be

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able to get people together like that. So you God  has definitely been using it. I think one of the

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things that you experienced in your own life, and  it's probably good for anyone else to hear that

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is a diaspora, meaning they're born in another  country scattered from where they were born.

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Sometimes people don't know how they can relate  to Muslims, who are so distant culturally,

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but even the diaspora experience as you talked  about as this liminal state of existence where

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you're not quite what you were, but you're not  quite this, and you struggle with "what am I?"

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Well, it doesn't matter if you are  from South America, Eastern Europe,

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Africa. All of you are going through that,  and it is an incredible place of connection

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and unity with others and so people don't  realize that some of the most effective

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evangelists, missionaries among Muslims aren't  even the host-culture Christians, like Americans

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like myself. They'll be from other countries  themselves that either came here directly or their

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parents came here that came at an early age and  often because they empathize so much with Muslims

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they're able to connect at deeper levels and have  a greater impact and so I think it's important for

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people to hear because they're like "I'm just here  to receive." No, you are really a major player on

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God's stage once you enter into that world. Since  2015, starting the Heart from Muslims conference,

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have you noticed any trends in ministry among  Muslims that have shifted or changed? What's new?

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AJ:

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A lot of new things, especially in [the] pandemic.  The pandemic set a new tone for Muslim ministry,

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and the ministry in general, in New York City or  any urban setting I think. One of the main thing

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I saw was, I have this beautiful story of our  co-worker, you and I know her, Dr. Fadia from

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urban Brooklyn [Arab-American] Friendship  Center, as she, you may remember this meeting,

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after the first conference we got together we  said we don't want to do another conference for

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the sake of conference. We want to see if God is  doing something, if He is moving things, we want

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to follow His movement wherever He goes. Right? So  she said this thing, she said, "Please don't stop

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hosting conferences because it's for the first  time. I'm feeling like others are doing the

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same thing. Because she was alone. She was  by herself doing it for so long, and it's a

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hard labor and then it's almost like a thankless  job. And, but then you see other people struggling

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the same way and doing this trying to preach the  gospel with us against all these struggles. And

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then you feel this like thank you Lord,  it's okay. It's almost like camaraderie.

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Unknown Speaker [unintelligible]

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Yeah.

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Like "these are my people."

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Yeah. And then you got to start, when

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you start hearing stories, even though it's not  it's not a victory story from my own ministry, but

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it's coming from the other ministrry there are, oh  yeah, it's my victory too, because we both are...

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We're in the same battle.

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Exactly. And I think

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that's what happened in the last, since 2015, I  have heard more stories of victory in the Lord

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and conversion and church plants and miracles  and all the other things than ever before.

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And it's not only my situation, I've heard that  from other other people who have experience too,

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because now they have a place where they can  share these things. A place where they can come

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together. And even if they are not here in the  conference, they are having conversation with each

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other because the network is there. It is not that  it's a physical network that you come and plug in,

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the network is that they build those friendships  and relationships and when they go away,

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they're still talking to each other and learning  from each other. That's one thing [that] came out.

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And the second thing that came out is resources  that were there. We are leveraging resources.

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That's a beautiful thing. I just got a request  from a partner organization. A Muslim background

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believer just landed and was looking for a place.  Immediately I texted three individuals, including

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one or two of our mutual friends, and said hey,  this came from such and such partner working in

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New York and we need that, He said, oh, perfect.  So the both of them immediately send me the

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next step, which was one was like I caught up with  such a such person they're waiting for the call

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them call them they have housing for them. Okay,  perfect. The other ones I asked him to call me

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right away, we got it. So I was like this is, this  is what's coming out. People are becoming aware of

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these needs and also the resources available to  them. If you are not part of this community. If

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you're not, if you're listening and do not know  where to start the ministry or you do not know

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where these practitioners are, these resources  are, please give us a chance to be part of your

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life, your ministry. If you're a church and have  no outreach to Muslim community in your area or

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in the proximity where God has put you  when you're not allowed to be there.

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The body of Christ

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seems to work best when they're not talking about  how distinct they are from the others but instead

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have some sort of common mission and vision  together and I think that's what has happened.

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So that's

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the trend. That's what I'm seeing. You know,  when I landed I didn't see that but I think

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since 2015 I've seen this a lot. I do not know  whether this is because I'm in the middle of that.

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I do not know, but it's just something I saw.  And I appreciate that, that I'm seeing and I hear

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randomly, I was in the Missio Nexus conference  and people are talking. I'm sitting the table

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and they're talking and they're talking  about this conference in New York, right?

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And they're talking about this conference, how  they connected, and they have this and that,

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and now they're engaging some Muslim community in  New Jersey. And my my wife and I were sitting here

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and you know me, I'm not gonna put my name out,  like, "Oh, I'm this or that." And suddenly,

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my wife was like, "Oh, my husband is the one and  his friend started the conference." I was like

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"Oh, oh!" [unintelligible]. So that the impact you  know, you don't hear those stories all the time.

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But when you do hear, it's like "wow." Another  story, it's like I was another conference and the

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guy's teaching perspective somewhere, and that was  I just watched the I heard about how to go to my

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church with a poster. You should do something  like this. When you hear it means the network--

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It lives on well beyond you as an individual.

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And

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these are the trends that I am seeing  and I'm thanking the Lord for that.

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I know

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this is pretty basic, but why should we even be  concerned about reaching out to Muslims? Also,

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what would you say to motivate and encourage  churches in starting ministry among Muslims?

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So the first part is simple. The first part is:

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Does Jesus care? Does he? Because I believe that

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he has a heart for Muslims. That he has a heart  for Hindus, that he has a heart for Buddhists,

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he has a heart for the whole Nations. This is  precisely the reason why they came to die for our

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sins. And he rose again, he was buried and rose  again, and he's is coming back and he has given

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this mission to the church. Could he have done it  all by himself just like, die and then like okay,

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because I died for you, boom, everybody,  now you are saved, you are justified and

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good. Everything is good. He could do everything  by himself, but he chose, this was his choosing

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and he wanted church out to be that. So why,  why should we reach out to Muslims? That's why,

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because God uses Jesus...That's why Jesus gave  us this relationship. So we can reach out. We

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are reaching out to Muslims because Jesus  commanded, because God has called us to,

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because God has brought Muslims to our  doorstep. They are literally our neighbors.

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We buy things from them. If you're living in New  York City, you are riding your taxi or Uber with

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them, you are going to store with them, you buying  things from them. They are everywhere. They are

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part of our community. They are part of our lives,  they are part of the whole structure here, right.

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And then in the bigger context, they are a very  large number of the world population, they are a

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significant number of world population. So that's  that's one. Missionally, it is important, right?

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And also

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what would you say to motivate and encourage  churches in starting? What would help them?

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So the best thing is that if the church

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exists, if the church exists to glorify  Christ, and spread the gospel, and

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also that church exists, especially in a place  where Muslims are there. So in Bronx I met, we had

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this leadership meeting with this group of people  who came to the conference, and they said that

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they are surrounded by Bengali Muslims. And they  haven't, I said, How long has your church been

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there for? I don't know, I forgot exactly what  15-16 years. "Have you done anything?" "No, that's

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why we are here." So if God has, if you were  there before the immigrants arrived or if you,

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immigrants were there and God's brought them  there, there is a reason why you're there.

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God has a bigger plan; if God planted that church  or God planted those people around that church,

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that's the reason is that we can share the gospel,  we don't have to go overseas. God is bringing them

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here. So that's a strong motivation, but in  general, even if they are not in your close

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vicinity, I think there's such a huge  group of people--huge group of people that

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love God is seeking after God, and they want to do  the right thing to whatever it takes to get there.

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All we need to do is step in, enter into their  reality, and guide them through that or help them

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navigate through those spiritual discussions.  So they can understand who really Jesus is,

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so they can understand him as the Lord and  Savior, not just as a prophet and good man.

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The World

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Christian encyclopedia will say that 86% of  Muslims in the world have never met a Christian.

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So even you just being the one Christian someone  knows goes a long, long ways for overcoming those

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barriers to come to Christ. Is there a time when a  church may be shouldn't focus on Muslim outreach?

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Is there a time?

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Unknown Speaker When you should not focus on Muslim outreach?

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I think if the church is, um...

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My answer like straight will be no, there is  never [a time] because Muslim outreach is part

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of missional calling. They are [a] people group  that are part of this unreached people group.

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But I understand if the church is never had a  vision of reaching nations or if they had a vision

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of reaching nations, but they never understood  that what it means to reach Muslims specifically

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because they have a different focus I  understand why they would be hesitant.

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But I think if God has given a  church...if a church is a church,

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it has to reach the unreached people group.  Right? And that is one of those people

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group...it's like a large population. I  mean, a very significant number. Yeah.

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CC:

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What would you suggest to someone who would  like to start a Muslim outreach at their

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church or through their church that maybe their  pastor or other congregants aren't supportive?

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I think I will say start with a prayer group.

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It's very simple. Nobody, nobody's going to argue  against you. Right? And I think prayer can change

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things when people, through prayer, prayer is  such a beautiful thing. You are asking the Lord to

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intervene with that very, very important process  if your church doesn't have a vision for that,

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or people are not supportive of that. Two,  when you're praying, you're praising to,

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so put some praise report there.  "God, I thank you that in Jordan,

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Ahmad came to Christ because of the vision that  you gave him," or "Lord, I thank you that Global

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Gates is involved is reaching the West African  nation or a specific nation," or "a bad person

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came to to Christ," "the churche planted," so  thanking the Lord in those praise reports I think,

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when people hear when people hear God is  changing, God is moving in those nations

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and among those peoples church plants are  happening. You gotta be hard set not to hear.

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You have to be somebody who is willingly rejecting  you. Then you dealing with a bigger issue that

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Muslim outreach, right? And then you are  dealing with a heart issue that have not

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even experienced transformation. That's  totally discipleship matter. But I think

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that will be my pathway in starting your own  if you're listening and you have the desire to

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start it. Muslim outreach, don't think big.  Think simple. That's what the disciple asked

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the Lord Jesus. Teach us how to pray. I'm  teaching you right now. All you need to do is

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lift up this need before the Lord thank the Lord  for what God is doing among Muslim communities or

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wherever you are. If you don't have resources. Go  to Heart for Muslims Conference on the resource

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page, we're gonna give you resources.  Go text us or email us. We'll get you.

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The resources, Global Gates is a good organization  in New York City. If you are in New York City,

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there are several other partner  organizations that are working on Muslims.

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We can give you an a prayer guide for 30 days  that the Global Gates put out every year with

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partnerships with other organization. There's  so many other resources, but start there.

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I heard a story once about

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a church that adopted this unreached people  group out in the desert of the West Africa,

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they prayed for them for years printing out  materials they would even go to Walmart and

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pass out flyers pray for this group pray for  this group. But no one answered that call

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to be an evangelist or missionary among  this group. So a couple of years later,

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they began in their prayers going wait a minute,  who has a heart for this people more than we do?

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We need to send an evangelist and  missionary so they ended up doing that.

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But prayer changes things, and it is a great  place to start. We have also developed a resource

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recently where you can take virtual prayer walks  in these Muslim communities in North America

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you can go into their mosques, see their faces,  see their places. So go to UPGNorthamerica.com.

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And you can see virtual prayer walks where you can  you can visualize and really empathize and connect

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with people by seeing real people instead of just  you know, this group that might be out there.

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That's

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fantastic. So it's UPG stands  for "unreached people group."

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UPGnorthamerica.com.

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And so

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you can remember easily so go there,  take these thoughts, start there.

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What are some of the big issues

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that prevent Christians from actually reaching  out to Muslims and how would you address those?

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I think the biggest issue is the fear of Islam.

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That's why this is part of our vision...so  for loving Muslims is the easy part. I think,

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even practitioners, those who are seasoned  practitioners, they genuinely love Muslims

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genuinely. It's the second part of the vision  of Heart for Muslims that troubles people, and

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that is to eliminate the fear of Islam. Because  Islam is a, not just a, as you know, you have done

AJ:

: 00:23:20

the studies as you are in Muslim ministry for so  long. Islam is a political system, it's a social

AJ:

: 00:23:27

socio-economical system, it's a culture, it's a  educational system, it has own laws and all the

AJ:

: 00:23:33

other things that come with that. So even if you  divided in to two pieces, there will be political

AJ:

: 00:23:39

Islam and religious Islam right? So even political  Islam itself is a movement any like any political

AJ:

: 00:23:47

campaign. You're going to do political stuff. So  there, you have this narrative that is scary. I

AJ:

: 00:23:55

understand. I was under that political regime  and that narrative. I was the victim of that.

AJ:

: 00:24:05

Now, that is a problem. And I understand...  I totally understand that prevents Christians

AJ:

: 00:24:12

from reaching out to Muslims, because there's  a fear of, as a genuine fear, being not sure.

CC:

: 00:24:18

Sure.

AJ:

: 00:24:19

And the way

AJ:

: 00:24:19

we're going to deal with that is, here's  what I think we're going to deal with that.

AJ:

: 00:24:24

We do not need to convert Muslims, that's...you  gotta have this deep down in your heart. You gotta

AJ:

: 00:24:30

have this polarity like such a calm understanding  from the Lord, that we don't convert people. We do

AJ:

: 00:24:39

not. We don't have the power to convert people.  We don't have the right. We are not adequate.

CC:

: 00:24:48

There's probably

CC:

: 00:24:50

someone more adequate to convert them back.

AJ:

: 00:24:52

Correct. It's not a human effort, exactly.

AJ:

: 00:24:56

And I think that's where the second piece comes  in, where people say, "Oh, but I'm not trained

AJ:

: 00:25:00

for this." Well we can give you training, no  problem. "No, I'm not adequate to talk to them".

AJ:

: 00:25:05

We can help you with that too. The confidence  that you need is going to come from the Lord.

AJ:

: 00:25:11

That's one again, it goes back to prayer part. But  two, I really think what you [unintelligible] what

AJ:

: 00:25:17

you really, really, you live life with them,  you eat food with them to hang out with them.

AJ:

: 00:25:22

You go to their funeral, you go to their weddings,  you go to their baby showers, you do all those

AJ:

: 00:25:27

things, and you attend their special festivals  and they come to yours. Life is happening during

AJ:

: 00:25:34

those life events. They see you you, how are you  acting versus how they will respond to adapt? What

AJ:

: 00:25:38

are the things I have heard the stories, and I'm a  pastor I preach that gospel during those funerals,

AJ:

: 00:25:46

where the person is heartbroken and vulnerable,  and they like only a bit know what happened to

AJ:

: 00:25:52

him or her, what will happen to them after that.  And in Islam, we know that even, it's not a

AJ:

: 00:26:00

it's not a bashing Islam, in like most religions,  even nominal Christianity, Catholicism,

AJ:

: 00:26:06

in all of those things, we have this hesitation  of, or lack of confidence was after this right?

AJ:

: 00:26:14

Everybody's like, I don't know what's gonna  happen. I don't know what if we know what's gonna

AJ:

: 00:26:18

happen? We know exactly what's gonna happen. And  you shown them so that, actions are so powerful

AJ:

: 00:26:23

when you're spending time with somebody and  bring that assurance. We don't do good works

AJ:

: 00:26:27

because we want to get close to God. Those good  works are the result of salvation we experience

AJ:

: 00:26:33

and you just got to look, little things are  so critical that you can speak when you are

AJ:

: 00:26:38

living your life, that you don't need to fear  Islam because you're not doing anything against

AJ:

: 00:26:44

the political system or laws or some fanatic out  there. You're just loving a person, and you're not

AJ:

: 00:26:50

doing on a political level where you want to make  a statement against the nation or people who are

AJ:

: 00:26:56

you not against anybody. You are  with everybody, you are pro people.

AJ:

: 00:27:03

So I think that's the issue when we,  when we understand people are people,

AJ:

: 00:27:10

then we act like people and I think we are  willing to love those people. And we don't

AJ:

: 00:27:15

need to pretend that we care, we probably do care  when when the real genuine thing is their life.

AJ:

: 00:27:24

And because we are believer, it will show, and  there we will have those opportunities to pray

AJ:

: 00:27:28

with them, share Christ with them, and live and  then when the time comes, if they have questions,

AJ:

: 00:27:34

we will able to answer those questions.  But it starts with the first step.

AJ:

: 00:27:38

We are not out there to convert people. I just  had like for India parade. We're going to have

AJ:

: 00:27:43

a Pakistani parade soon, too. I went over there,  and the guy didn't want to take this literature.

AJ:

: 00:27:48

I said, may I ask you why. He said I see what  it says. I said, Oh, I'm sorry. But I'm just

AJ:

: 00:27:54

wondering, I want you to know that I'm not here  to convert. This is a short video we produce,

AJ:

: 00:27:58

so we're gonna show, but we do have a volleyball  game at our church and on Monday night. Love to

AJ:

: 00:28:03

have you there other young people are there, some  are from Hindu background. That kind of thing. I

AJ:

: 00:28:08

was genuine. I was like literally that was I was  telling him like, I don't want to convert you.

AJ:

: 00:28:13

And the thought that if you want to talk to a  Muslim person Muslims gonna try to convert you,

AJ:

: 00:28:17

you're gonna try to convert them you're  never gonna build a good friendship or loving

AJ:

: 00:28:21

relationship or a genuine relationship is going to  come from when you put that thought aside and say,

AJ:

: 00:28:27

that's in the hands of the Lord. If  this conversation goes somewhere,

AJ:

: 00:28:31

if this relationship goes somewhere, and if the  Lord desires that, you know, this is important. I

AJ:

: 00:28:36

had this conversation with the Jewish person  last week. He said, oh, everybody tells me

AJ:

: 00:28:42

that you're gonna go to hell because you don't  believe in Jesus. What do you what do you have

AJ:

: 00:28:45

to say about that? And I would say that they have  no authority to send anybody to heaven or hell.

AJ:

: 00:28:50

I would say that that's the wrong.  They shouldn't be scaring you into

AJ:

: 00:28:55

Christianity. Actually, as a matter of fact,  nobody can enter into Christianity. Christianity,

AJ:

: 00:28:58

is not open for everybody. Only if the Father  draws people to the sun. You can just come in.

AJ:

: 00:29:06

I can share it with you. But it's by the grace of  God. God has to bring you to the saving knowledge.

AJ:

: 00:29:12

And this guy is standing there. And looking at  my face. I aid, that's pretty much what I said.

AJ:

: 00:29:18

And that's true. You have to know that if you  believe in predestination, if you believe in

AJ:

: 00:29:24

sovereignty of God, if you believe that the work  of the Holy Spirit is responsible for conversion,

AJ:

: 00:29:29

then you leave everything to Him and Him alone.  And you do your part, which is love your neighbor.

AJ:

: 00:29:36

And do those two things that the Bible says.  Love your God. Great Commission. Carry those two.

CC:

: 00:29:42

Yeah, that's good.

CC:

: 00:29:45

And what is a commonly held belief about Muslim  ministry that you passionately disagree with?

AJ:

: 00:29:52

I think this idea of

AJ:

: 00:29:59

I mean, okay, um, I'm in favor, when it comes to friendships, I'm completely in favor. I love building relationships.

AJ:

: 00:30:07

I love building relationships. But using that kind of like a mechanism to covertly or deceptively share Christ

AJ:

: 00:30:18

whether you're going overseas or here. I think that's

AJ:

: 00:30:21

that's not genuine. I think that's not what is commonly, are you asking that one, that way?

CC:

: 00:30:28

What's a common

CC:

: 00:30:29

held belief about ministry to  Muslims you really disagree with?

AJ:

: 00:30:32

Yeah. And that's one that oh, all you need

AJ:

: 00:30:36

to do is just to have this friendship and then...  "I gotcha." I think that's the wrong approach. I

AJ:

: 00:30:42

don't think that's the right approach for a Muslim  person. That's the deceptive evangelism. But if

AJ:

: 00:30:49

you're honest and upfront, that's great. And the  second thing I really don't like, when people...

CC:

: 00:30:56

Just clarify with that, it's not like

CC:

: 00:30:59

"I'm friends" and then later on, I kind of get to  what I really wanted to do when I befriended you.

CC:

: 00:31:05

Instead, be honest, like, I don't know if I've  told you about I call him Pakistani Christian

CC:

: 00:31:10

Yoda. You know he's he's much like you're very  wise, comes from Pakistan, this pastor. But

CC:

: 00:31:15

he says, you need to make friends but not but  not Western-type friends, western friends, you

CC:

: 00:31:23

have very compartmentalized lives.  These are the people I work with.

CC:

: 00:31:26

And here these are the people I don't share real  life with and these are the people I hang out.

CC:

: 00:31:30

But real friends and an Eastern  perspective or a Pakistani perspective,

CC:

: 00:31:35

is that you share what's most important to you  upfront in your relationship, because it's just

CC:

: 00:31:41

part of being friends. So make friends just  not Western-type friends. Share who you are.

AJ:

: 00:31:48

Yeah. And then also I don't like the idea that,

AJ:

: 00:31:52

you know, this whole thought behind from the  60s and 70s that "Oh, Muslim God, you know,

AJ:

: 00:32:01

the tracks you see everywhere. Muslim God is an  idol. So disrespectful. That's not true. I mean,

AJ:

: 00:32:10

if well, historically, whether that was true  or not, I don't care actually. What I care is,

AJ:

: 00:32:16

when you meet a contemporary Muslim and you talk  to them, they will trace that back to, well,

AJ:

: 00:32:23

we believe in God of Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael.  If they're telling you with their own mouth,

AJ:

: 00:32:30

you're not gonna believe him. And you know, no,  no, no, I want to go back to that tale that they

AJ:

: 00:32:35

use, centuries, you know, some time ago so  I think those kinds of things I'm against,

AJ:

: 00:32:44

I disagree with that kind of stuff  where apologetics is out to, you know,

AJ:

: 00:32:50

destroy a relationship based on just  winning an argument. Muslim ministry as

AJ:

: 00:32:57

you said already is the love of Christ that  I think in the previous episode you said,

AJ:

: 00:33:02

most people are reporting it's the is the love  of Christ that is proclaimed, showed in lives.

CC:

: 00:33:10

As we

CC:

: 00:33:10

begin closing out this episode, is there a main  takeaway you would like our listeners to have?

AJ:

: 00:33:17

Well,

AJ:

: 00:33:19

as far as Urban Voices is concerned, I think it's  my thought is that when you come to this platform,

AJ:

: 00:33:27

if you're listening for the first time, I  encourage you to listen to other episodes too,

AJ:

: 00:33:30

because Urban Voices is not just only focusing on  Islam or Muslims, it focuses on Urban Voices and

AJ:

: 00:33:38

it has episodes that focus on Black community and  their cricis in the middle of all of this, it has

AJ:

: 00:33:47

focused on...you will hear some of the  voices are talking about Jewish evangelism,

AJ:

: 00:33:54

others talking about whatever impacts city life  and city people, but in the context of faith,

AJ:

: 00:34:02

right, and more specifically, Christian faith.  How missionaries are changing life, how everyday

AJ:

: 00:34:09

average people are changing life for Christ as  they interact with the Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs,

AJ:

: 00:34:15

Hasidic Jews, and so forth and so  on. So that's one takeaway. Please

AJ:

: 00:34:21

engage with us through Urban  Voices, we want to hear from you.

CC:

: 00:34:29

if they want to get in touch

CC:

: 00:34:30

with you to find your books more on the website,  email you directly what are the ways to do that?

AJ:

: 00:34:38

Oururbanvoices.com or my personal

AJ:

: 00:34:40

website, AlfonseJaved, (my full name) dot com, and  we can get in touch. I'm also on Twitter as well.

CC:

: 00:34:47

Alright, great.

CC:

: 00:34:48

And as all of your episodes end, amidst of all the  heavy talks of Islam and so forth, give us a joke.

AJ:

: 00:34:57

This time I'm really excited about this joke.

AJ:

: 00:35:00

All right for joke so in America, we have you  know, those joke is a fancy joke about blondes.

CC:

: 00:35:08

Okay, blonde people.

AJ:

: 00:35:10

Yeah, right. Right. But over there in

AJ:

: 00:35:12

the South Asia, we have jokes about Sikhs. So this  one is about a, satarjee, that's what they call

AJ:

: 00:35:19

it Punjabi, basically, um, I'm Punjabi, so I can  make fun of myself too. But I'm gonna make it more

general. So teacher said: 00:35:24

Where were you born?  And the students said "India." And the teacher

general. So teacher said: 00:35:30

said "which part?" "What do you mean which  part? My whole body was born in India!!!"

CC:

: 00:35:40

Nice. Well, Alfonse,

CC:

: 00:35:44

thank you so much for being on your show. Again,  I'm Chris Clayman. That was your host pastor and

CC:

: 00:35:49

author Dr. Alfonse Javed. Thank you to all our  listeners. We truly cannot do this without you.

CC:

: 00:35:56

You learn something, have a suggested  topic, or would like to leave us feedback,

CC:

: 00:36:01

drop us a note that oururbanvoices.com. Be sure  to subscribe to the show. Leave an honest review

CC:

: 00:36:08

wherever you listen to your podcast.  And tune in next week for more honest

CC:

: 00:36:12

discussions about urban ministry  from diverse voices. Thank you.