Episode 43
#43. A Christian Persecuted in Pakistan — an Advocate to Love Muslims in America
Pastor Alfonse Javed shares experiences that reveal the need to love our enemies, support religious freedom, find common ground and love our neighbors well.
He grew up in a Christian family in a Muslim-majority country, Pakistan. Then in America, he was shunned as though he were Muslim.
Special Guest Host: Chris Clayman, co-founder of Global Gates Network and Heart for Muslims
What You’ll Learn:
- What It Was Like as a Christian Growing Up in Pakistan — a Muslim Majority Country
- How Urban Missions is Impacting Global Missions
- About the Importance of Finding Common Ground to Relate to Image Bearers of God
Bonus Content:
Existence – Get a Free Copy of this Book with a Subscription
About the Guest:
Dr. Alfonse Javed, the Senior Pastor of 1st Baptist Church of Metuchen, has planted a church abroad, has been a missions pastor and has served as a missionary in Pakistan, Iran, and Afghanistan.
Born in Lahore, Pakistan — the son of a pastor — Pastor Javed began serving in church at a young age. He has served as a missionary in Pakistan, Iran, and Afghanistan. He has also planted a church in Greece. In the 1990s, a providential relationship formed when Calvary Baptist Church started supporting his ministry efforts; he would later serve as the missions pastor of that congregation. Eventually, in 2009, he moved to New York with a new vision — mobilizing churches to engage Muslims in the NYC metro area.
Dr. Javed’s advanced theological training is from the Greek Bible College, Davis College and Liberty University. He has earned three undergraduate, three graduate, and three doctoral degrees. His dissertations have explored various subjects from religious influence on the American school system to evangelism and church planting, to Islamic madrases and the treatment that Muslims students have received in the post 9/11 New York City school system. He maintains a blog, www.alfonsejaved.com, and is the author of The Muslim Next Door: A Practical Guide for Evangelism and Discipleship. Dr. Javed and his wife, Sarah, have four children.
Scripture Related to Episode:
Matthew 5: 44; Loving and Blessing Your Enemy
Matthew 22: 39, John 13: 34; Loving Your Neighbor
Exodus 22: 21; Leviticus 19: 33-34; Do Not Mistreat the Foreigner
Genesis 1:26-28; All People Are Made in the Image of God
John 3: 16-17; Jesus Died to Bring Salvation
Matthew 5:13-16; A City Proclaiming Christ
1 Corinthians 9: 19-23; Finding Common Ground
Links Related to Episode:
Timestamped Show Notes:
01:34 - Turning the Tables with Chris Clayman
01:57 - Topic: From Hatred to Love for Muslims
02:26 - Chris Clayman and Global Gates
03:07 - Married with 4 under 5
03:47 - Growing Up in a Muslim-Majority Country
04:24 - 1980's Pakistani Policies toward Non-Muslims
06:46 - Persecution in Pakistan
07:19 - Non-Muslims' Lives Seen as Insignificant
08:06 - Anger toward God
08:31 - Love for Muslims
09:41 - Violent Attack on Church in Pakistan
10:12 - Desire for Revenge
10:35 - God's Protection in the midst of Violent Attack
11:40 - Hostility in America
12:53 - Pursuing Love of Christ
15:53 - NYC after 9-11
16:15 - Starting the Heart for Muslims Conference
19:41 - Jesus has a Heart for Muslims
20:36 - The Power of Proximity
21:50 - Why Do Muslims Usually Come to Christ?
22:28 - Starting Our Urban Voices Podcast
25:17 - Giving Voice to Urban Stories
27:03 - Christian Immigrants Reviving Churches in America
27:21 - Distinctives of Urban Ministry
29:25 - God is Moving in Cities Today
31:53 - What is a 4th Era of Missions?
34:18 - Uniqueness of Muslim Ministry in Cities
36:14 - Open Doors in Cities for the Gospel to Reach the World
38:42 - Connecting with People from Different Cultures
41:37 - Finding Common Ground
45:38 - Contact Alfonse Javed and Finding His Books
46:32 - Knock, Knock
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Transcript
Hello, welcome back to Our Urban Voices.
Speaker:I am Chris Clayman.
Speaker:I'll be your host today not Alfonse Javed.
Speaker:Alfonse, you know, he has previously interviewed me for this podcast.
Speaker:The tables are turned now Alfonse.
Speaker:And you might know this but Alfonse has a very unique perspective on many topics due
Speaker:to his incredible background.
Speaker:Today you're going to get to learn more about his journey from hatred to love for Muslims.
Speaker:Alfonse is currently the senior pastor at First Baptist Church of Metuchen in New Jersey.
Speaker:He's the founder of the Heart for Muslims Conference and Resources and Aid Mobilization
Speaker:in Pakistan.
Speaker:He has three, at least three, postgraduate degrees was born and raised in Pakistan.
Speaker:Plus, you'll even get to hear a joke from Alfonse himself.
Speaker:I'll just introduced myself.
Speaker:I'm the co-founder, Associate Director of Global Gates, [an] evangelical mission organization,
Speaker:mobilizing prayer missionaries for the most unreached people group communities in North
Speaker:America.
Speaker:I'm also on the executive team of the Heart For Muslims conference.
Speaker:All right, Alfonse.
Speaker:Are you ready?
Speaker:Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker:I get to do this with everybody else.
Speaker:Today, I'm like a little bit nervous when we're here.
Speaker:How I'm going to respond to questions, how I'm going to control my thoughts is so much
Speaker:easier to just say a word or two and ... I know you have thoughts, you just write books,
Speaker:but this has to be concise!
Speaker:It's different.
Speaker:So first, I know you love talking about your family.
Speaker:So tell us about your family.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:I have four children.
Speaker:I'm married to Sarah, my wife, and she is from upstate New York, and we have known each
Speaker:other for 16 years.
Speaker:And now we have four children.
Speaker:And my oldest is five, then four, my second boy is four, and then I have twin girls.
Speaker:Beautiful, gorgeous little cuties, who will be two in September.
Speaker:So yeah, we have four under five.
Speaker:I't's a lot of fun in the Javed's house.
Speaker:And you were not raised in upstate New York, you were raised elsewhere.
Speaker:So talk about your background.
Speaker:What was it like growing up as a Christian in an Islamic Republic in a Muslim majority
Speaker:country?
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Well, I was born in Pakistan.
Speaker:And as you know, Pakistan was, is still an extremely beautiful country with so much to
Speaker:offer to the world and some of the best philosopher poets, musicians, and even Nobel Prize winners
Speaker:have come out of Pakistan.
Speaker:But unfortunately, in the 1980s, everything changed under a regime, and it brought is
Speaker:Islam, or the idea of the regime was to Islamicize Pakistan, and therefore it became a very extreme
Speaker:country and gradually, minorities were, you know, left to be just a people that nobody
Speaker:cares, and I grew up in that kind of environment.
Speaker:What age were you at that time?
Speaker:I was born in 1980.
Speaker:So I was born into that.
Speaker:First, my formative years were under that regime.
Speaker:So all I saw was that kind of a place where all you're hearing is Islam is the only path.
Speaker:Muslims are the only people supposed to be supposed to be prevailing.
Speaker:They're supposed to be leading.
Speaker:They are the only people that God loves and God likes and they are God's people.
Speaker:And I was in my school, the books were altered, and the books were textbooks [and] were teaching
Speaker:everybody that all Christians are not worshipping God, they worship three Gods, and Hindus are
Speaker:worshipers of multiple gods and the Jews come out of pigs, sorry, apes and all kinds of
Speaker:bad stuff out of hatred was breached.
Speaker:And, of course a challenge to my own personal belief to, kind of like, shook me to my core.
Speaker:You know, you when you're a little kid and this is all you know, that you are treated
Speaker:as somebody who was not supposed to be in that country actually the meaning that we
Speaker:heard from day one word meanings of Pakistan is "la ilaha illa Allah Mohammad rassoul Allah,' which is a creed,
Speaker:[meaning to be Pakistani is to be Muslim] which is not true.
Speaker:The meaning of Pakistan is Pak-istan, a land of the pure and founder himself, he said--Pakistan
Speaker:just turned 75--and his first speech was that "we're not gonna treat you according to your
Speaker:ethnicity or your religion.
Speaker:Go wherever you want to go.
Speaker:Worship whoever you want to worship," but that's not the case.
Speaker:By the time I reached my teens, I was literally persecuted wherever you know, the guy just
Speaker:threw me on the floor and he was about to hit me with an ice pick.
Speaker:And you know, God, just delivered me because somebody else saw me and they're like, I know
Speaker:this guy.
Speaker:That's another guy are you looking for?
Speaker:I'm sorry.
Speaker:We looking for another Christian?
Speaker:I want to kill another Christian, you are the wrong guy.
Speaker:Oh my goodness.
Speaker:So therefore they're like, Okay, you can go now.
Speaker:And I was like, that kind of stuff.
Speaker:When in the street you are not safe just because your...your value, your life, is meaningless
Speaker:because you're not Muslim.
Speaker:So when you're Muslim, there is a security, you can get a job.
Speaker:All these kinds of things like from minor day to day persecution, to our real persecution
Speaker:when you're running for your life or my dad was thrown in prison for so many times.
Speaker:When I'm running for my life, or hiding, all these kinds of things are part of this growing
Speaker:up experience that changed my perspective on Christianity, later on Islam, and then
Speaker:again, on Christianity and Islam and again, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Speaker:Those kinds of things, you know, created hostility, first against Christian God and then against
Speaker:Muslim God, who caused Muslims to treat me that way.
Speaker:So...
Speaker:So you grew up in that environment that obviously has an effect on how you view Muslims throughout
Speaker:the world.
Speaker:Now we know that you have been involved with obviously a conference called Heart for Muslims,
Speaker:written books about love for Muslims.
Speaker:What changed your perspective about Muslims from that point to where you're at today?
Speaker:I think it was, as I said, that it's just that same thought that I always had against
Speaker:Christianity in the early days.
Speaker:My dad is a pastor in Pakistan.
Speaker:That's what I grew up with, it's a Christian family.
Speaker:So I heard about the gospel.
Speaker:I heard about this God who is loving and hears our cries and all the other things, but yet,
Speaker:the evidence was the opposite to what I was taught, right.
Speaker:So there was no food.
Speaker:There's hardly any clothes, and you're constantly on the run.
Speaker:And you dad is alwasy gone.
Speaker:All of this stuff just pointed me towards this narrative that maybe that God is not
Speaker:the God that my mom and dad are talking about.
Speaker:But Muslim God, on the other hand, was providing to all of my friends, and my classmates, and
Speaker:all that.
Speaker:So that was this first thing, right?
Speaker:But then, when the Lord changed my heart at the age of 14, there was an attack on our
Speaker:church (back in Pakistan).
Speaker:Bullets were flying, people got shot, it was awful.
Speaker:My dad is missing.
Speaker:My brothers are missing, my two brothers are missing.
Speaker:My mom is out in the street with my younger sisters who are very small little girls, and
Speaker:she's crying and I arrived from my grandparents' house.
Speaker:And as soon as I get there, I see this situation and my first reaction was, give me a gun.
Speaker:Is there anybody who has a gun?
Speaker:I want to shoot back, all I want to do is shoot back.
Speaker:I want to shoot back.
Speaker:That's all I wanted.
Speaker:Nobody had a gun.
Speaker:Nobody had given me a gun.
Speaker:Thank God there was no gun.
Speaker:Otherwise I would have been rotting in prison.
Speaker:But thank God.
Speaker:And then I saw this thing from this from the back wall there was a little hole.
Speaker:I saw through the hole, the door of the main gate of the church opened.
Speaker:Somehow it opened.
Speaker:And then I saw these bullets.
Speaker:By this time was already late at night and dark out.
Speaker:So I saw bullets flying with fire going from the bullet shooting through the guns, I can
Speaker:see them shooting, and then I see this guy like almost like a movie.
Speaker:He just, it just skipped him.
Speaker:He just like [imitates whooshing sound of bullet], it's like that kind of scene.
Speaker:I'm seeing that from this little missing brick place where they construct a wall, where they
Speaker:put a bamboo ladder.
Speaker:So that's why this this thing I'm seeing is something can't happen.
Speaker:This is impossible.
Speaker:The guy, that guy God is protecrting.
Speaker:And then I broke down, I said Lord, if you are real, I'll commit my life to you.
Speaker:I will never ever ever go away, I will always follow you.
Speaker:But with that, God also changed my mind, too.
Speaker:If you read my first book, it has a lot of hatred-based, not not false, just because
Speaker:what I experienced, I showed in that book, it comes from that section of people who preach
Speaker:and practice hatefu Islam and preaching and practicing terrorism.
Speaker:They did not understand the dignity of life.
Speaker:Exactly what Zia and his government was trying to do in the 80s.
Speaker:And that's what I learned and that's what I saw, so I recorded that.
Speaker:But something changed in my own heart as I started to see Muslims being persecuted here,
Speaker:being looked down upon, even myself when I saw people seeing me and treating me as if
Speaker:I was the enemy of this land.
Speaker:So I was not taken as a friend of Pakistan nor I was taken as a citizen or friend of
Speaker:US either.
Speaker:Here I was treated as Muslim or Pakistani.
Speaker:Over there, I was treated as a Christian and possibly allied to America and was attacked.
Speaker:So when you don't have any home, and you are the persecuted one, then you begin to understand
Speaker:the pain of others who are being persecuted regardless of their ethnicity, background,
Speaker:or persecution.
Speaker:And that's just changed my heart.
Speaker:You got to be somebody to stand up for Muslims.
Speaker:Because not all Muslim, majority Muslims are represented by a very small minority.
Speaker:When it comes to terrorism and all that majority Muslim, the Muslim that I grew up with, they
Speaker:are willing to share their view, they live life.
Speaker:They are the ones who show up when you need them.
Speaker:But then also I was victimized by Muslims, who were holding the ice pick and trying to
Speaker:kill me.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:So both those type of people existed there.
Speaker:They exist here.
Speaker:So that changed my perspective and when God gave me a position in a influential church
Speaker:in midtown Manhattan, I decided to pursue love and preach love and out of that God brought
Speaker:you, a couple of our friends to host this conference.
Speaker:You and me sat down.
Speaker:You remember that?
Speaker:Back in those days we were in Florida and so many of us were from Metro [New York area]
Speaker:and I said why we don't do this in New York?
Speaker:Let's do it!
Speaker:And we said like 40 people will be a victory, and then God brought this amazing number.
Speaker:So I think that changed my perspective.
Speaker:My perspective was changed because I saw Muslims as a minority, just the way Muslims were treating,
Speaker:majority Muslims were treating minority Christians there, here, minority as minority they were
Speaker:treated by other, especially by Christians, when they were treated by Christians.
Speaker:It was hurting me because that was not gospel.
Speaker:I was hurting them by proclaiming something that was not godly.
Speaker:So it changed me and then I started talking about the love of Christ, because that's the
Speaker:only thing that can change their heart.
Speaker:That changed my heart forever about Muslims forever.
Speaker:So that's that's pretty much what can be the love of Christ, the love of Christ that brought
Speaker:him from heaven to earth to die for our sins and rose again.
Speaker:That same love that constrains him to that frail body or that caused him to empty Himself
Speaker:and become nothing.
Speaker:That same agape love, I think caused me to have a different perspective on my life.
Speaker:And also because of, I'm grateful now that I went through those experiences because it
Speaker:caused me to think differently and love Muslims out of that experience I saw.
Speaker:You migrated to America after 9/11, is that right?
Speaker:That's correct.
Speaker:So you experienced all of the things that came from Americans post 9/11 towards Muslims,
Speaker:you experienced that towards yourself, it gave you to a new empathy towards Muslims.
Speaker:And then that led to kind of this other journey with with Christ.
Speaker:Talk a little bit more about starting the Heart for Muslims Conference.
Speaker:Why was that an important thing for you to be a part of?
Speaker:Yeah, I think recently, I saw a study...not recently, two years ago, I saw a study.
Speaker:In that it said that conferences are better method [to] influence people.
Speaker:Now, rather than Christian conference or some other conference it doesn't matter.
Speaker:But the idea is, when people come together, when you have people like minded or people
Speaker:who oppose your understanding, we come together as a place to discuss content or wherever
Speaker:that main reason that brought people together.
Speaker:For me, that was, as I said back in Florida, Jacksonville.
Speaker:I saw this beautiful camaraderie.
Speaker:I saw a few people, very few people, among millions of people trying to give a new narrative
Speaker:opposing to the prevailing narrative about Muslims and they're seeing the immigrantation
Speaker:of this huge number of Muslims in the United States as a threat, and this group small little
Speaker:group is seen as an opportunity to love them and show them that we are different, and I
Speaker:also connected that back to my country, or many of the Muslim countries.
Speaker:Over 50 Muslim countries where they're majority, I saw that as a opportunity.
Speaker:What if we, the church?
Speaker:What if we the church began to love Muslims here.
Speaker:And they go back home or when they connect to their people back home?
Speaker:They issue with each other like, "no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker:Christians are different.
Speaker:I experienced them.
Speaker:They are treating us this way."
Speaker:It's such an amazing love that we have experienced the United States.
Speaker:Why can't we show that to Christians here in Pakistan, or India, or Saudi, or Iraq or
Speaker:wherever they are from.
Speaker:So when I saw that, that was part of the reason, but then other thing was, I was encouraged.
Speaker:I was just encouraged by this small group of people...and what they were doing.
Speaker:it was kind of like a support group, loving on each other, and they're sharing what God,
Speaker:what I think that God gave them as tools and techniques that they experimented with, and
Speaker:they were working.
Speaker:They were they were hashing out what works, what doesn't work, this is great.
Speaker:You know, we need this kind of platform.
Speaker:We need this in New York.
Speaker:Metro New York has the largest I think what the largest Muslim population in the world
Speaker:when it comes to Western world, and I was like, we need that.
Speaker:And when I spoke to you, it was both.
Speaker:Both in a sense that you brought this missionary perspective and I brought this loving, um,
Speaker:loving perspective from a pastoral heart.
Speaker:I wanted to really encourage the church to be the church.
Speaker:And then I saw you as a mission agency or parachurch doing the same thing.
Speaker:So I thought was let's let's...
Speaker:...connect those worlds.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:What it will look like if a church becomes the Church of Jesus Christ, and loves on them.
Speaker:I think then we can change the world.
Speaker:And it's not only we are proclaiming heart for Muslims because Jesus had heart from Muslim
Speaker:because we want to eliminate the fear of Islam and for more love for Muslims because Jesus
Speaker:loved them.
Speaker:But it's also the element of waiting.
Speaker:That's where parachurch ministry practitioners come in.
Speaker:So bringing them together became the reason, and Muslim Next Door is the same way.
Speaker:The book is, literally the book I wrote was the questions I collected over the past 12
Speaker:years of my life as a missionary.
Speaker:People asked me questions, I put them down, put them down.
Speaker:And when I got into pastoral ministry, I was like, oh, even inside the church, people have
Speaker:the same question.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And I think even this year, we are doing conference, the main thrust of the argument is the power
Speaker:of proximity, how your culture, location and shared experiences can bring a price to Muslims.
Speaker:It doesn't matter where you live, if you're listening, I just want to take advantage of
Speaker:this interview.
Speaker:If you're listening to the podcast and you do not, let's say you don't have any Muslims
Speaker:in your close proximity.
Speaker:But I tell you, the internet has brought people together.
Speaker:That is, that that's amazing.
Speaker:And then Muslims are everywhere, especially if you're in an urban setting.
Speaker:You will find Muslims in New York, we have it in Edison area right now.
Speaker:I'm in Metuchen, Edison area, we have a lot of Muslims here.
Speaker:They need to see God's people moving with God's love and changing lives.
Speaker:Here and around the world, they want to see that we want to see that in their lives.
Speaker:So I think that's exactly why in those early days you and I when we start talking, we wanted
Speaker:to include the church.
Speaker:To follow Christ.
Speaker:We want to equip them and provide them opportunity to serve.
Speaker:And seems like most people when they get interested in ministry of Muslims, because we don't know
Speaker:much, especially when we grew up in that sort of background to Muslim majority country,
Speaker:you learn a whole lot to try to win arguments.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And there have been surveys done of 1000s of Muslim-background-Christians, [asking]
Speaker:"why did you come to Christ?"
Speaker:Never at the top of the list was apologetics, even though it might be good to know for your
Speaker:own confidence that you have the truth.
Speaker:The number one reason always is the love of Christians, the love of Christ, which got
Speaker:them interested in finding out the truth and a life behind it.
Speaker:This is so important.
Speaker:Switching gears now and talk about the podcast, which is actually a subsidiary of Heart for
Speaker:Muslims.
Speaker:What prompted you to start Our Urban Voices and what does that actually mean?
Speaker:So Urban Voices was born in the middle of the pandemic, and we were...so the conference
Speaker:is all about bringing people together, and when you are limited by the pandemic, and
Speaker:you are not allowed to, actually you are forbidden, to meet and gathering...to gather people in
Speaker:a location we were forced to think, logistically, how will work out for us if we take this online.
Speaker:So we did a conference during the pandemic, it was beautiful, it was fruitful.
Speaker:I got to hear so many wonderful stories, our mutual friends from, actually they work for
Speaker:your organization.
Speaker:They reported several baptisms, during the pandemic from Bangladeshi background, I got
Speaker:to hear all of those because of the conference.
Speaker:But then I realized, well, at least in person, we were able to connect and then follow through
Speaker:and throughout the year we will hold a hosting small events and doing outreaches.
Speaker:But now we were limited.
Speaker:And the best thing that came out of that change was I got to hear stories.
Speaker:Okay, stories matter.
Speaker:Stories matter, and why do we just hear them in a conference and then they die.
Speaker:I mean that they don't, stories don't die, but you don't hear them if you weren't at
Speaker:the conference.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:So the idea was around, the same time podcasts was showing up everywhere, it became itself
Speaker:a pandemic.
Speaker:Everybody was on podcasts.
Speaker:God is speaking very clearly that we can envision a platform where we can become the voice.
Speaker:And then simultaneously around the same time, you know, the George, you remember in New
Speaker:York, it was awful after George Floyd's murder, and it became a huge deal, and everybody was
Speaker:sort of protesting in the streets.
Speaker:And that was another issue.
Speaker:And churches are divided over that, and I was like, I heard young people leading those
Speaker:Christians, young people leading that.
Speaker:There was like all this complicated issue with the BLM Movement versus supporting Black
Speaker:lives and all that.
Speaker:I was like, You know what?
Speaker:This is amazing.
Speaker:Now I have two things that I want to accomplish.
Speaker:I want to hear people who are making difference for Lord Jesus Christ in urban settings.
Speaker:Not only people from Muslim background are coming to brag, but also this is happening
Speaker:justice movement, social justice, or justice movement, or mercy of Christ is happening.
Speaker:And then I saw testimonies of church plants.
Speaker:I said, okay, perfect.
Speaker:We're going to put all these things, and start inviting people.
Speaker:We're going to hear urban voices, our urban voices, who are practitioners who are working
Speaker:in the field, who are trying to make a difference.
Speaker:And pull these voices together and provide a platform, so they gotta be audience out
Speaker:there looking for the voices to come out of the urban setting, like New York City.
Speaker:So that's how the the podcasts was born.
Speaker:And I think over time, we have received comments, it's growing and it was about time that the
Speaker:staff said, you know, people need to know you too, as the host.
Speaker:So there is nobody else like Chris.
Speaker:Perfect person to come and interview me.
Speaker:And I think one of the things that you've always done well is seeing the raising up
Speaker:the voice of people who don't have natural platforms to have a voice.
Speaker:So I think that is something very valuable that needs to come from the cities because
Speaker:our largest churches, really you're seeing this increasingly in the western context,
Speaker:the thriving spiritual centers of our cities are usually happening because of immigrants.
Speaker:It's not just Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists and Sikhs and Jewish people coming here.
Speaker:Most migrants are actually Christians, and they are spreading their spiritual fervor
Speaker:and flavor into our cities.
Speaker:And so being able to give a voice to that phenomenon is maybe what will save the American
Speaker:church.
Speaker:Sometimes when we think about reaching the nations, we have this picture of the Indiana
Speaker:Jones type with a machete going through translating the language on the side.
Speaker:People that have never seen a foreigner wherever, wherever that foreigner happens to be from
Speaker:it's coming to give the gospel.
Speaker:Urban ministry doesn't look like that at all.
Speaker:So what makes urban ministry an important part of what God is doing globally?
Speaker:Let me say this, I have learned this from you, when I landed in New York City and God
Speaker:connected us.
Speaker:Those days I was working with parachurch ministry, Hephzibah house on the Upper West Side.
Speaker:And we've God just brought us into this beautiful relationship through the power of the Gospel,
Speaker:we both loved missions, loved the city.
Speaker:God has brought us many experiences.
Speaker:see that as logical and expenses God gave me some of those to me connected I gotta learn
Speaker:from books.
Speaker:You
Speaker:Yes, that's right.
Speaker:I just went through that.
Speaker:This is amazing, the New York City is not just commercial hub, its not just Wall Street
Speaker:and suits, it's more than that.
Speaker:Not just a mover and shaker of politics over the world, but it is more than that.
Speaker:It's something great is happening here and I went through it, oh that's my people, Punjabis!
Speaker:Punjabis are here.
Speaker:Pakistanis!
Speaker:There is a neighborhood, little Pakistan!
Speaker:If that's how I felt, think about other nations.
Speaker:The whole world was captured there in that book.
Speaker:I was looking at, I was learning about new people groups.
Speaker:And I was like, and then um, because of my background in missions, I was looking at the
Speaker:unreached people group.
Speaker:I was like, wow.
Speaker:So you don't have to go all over the world, God is bringing people right here in the city.
Speaker:And then I came across Pastor Tim Keller's book, too.
Speaker:His whole ministry approach was city centers and gateways.
Speaker:Your organization, Global Gates, is an example of that.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And all these guys are connecting and then I'm hearing from other practitioners, I ran
Speaker:into another brother, a mutual friend of ours, Boto, and gradually numbers start growing,
Speaker:more and more people I'm seeing and they're talking about these cities, urban cities,
Speaker:being the epicenter of this new gospel movement.
Speaker:And I'm seeing that, oh my, my it's no longer you gotta leave from the port on a boat to
Speaker:go somewhere.
Speaker:It's the hub cities where people are coming and flying and all the other things that are
Speaker:happening and people are coming home.
Speaker:Other places, even in United States, the same thing people are coming from Midwest, South,
Speaker:and everywhere else in New York City.
Speaker:But then, I also saw that other cities, like New York City, that also are refuge cities,
Speaker:I did not know that.
Speaker:Being there, I realized that oh, our lives he allows these illegal immigrants are people
Speaker:who are persecuted and run for their lives to come and hide and take shelter.
Speaker:Would it be cool if we focus on these people?
Speaker:And that's exactly what I mean.
Speaker:Brothers like you who've been in those cities and sowing the seed and connecting and sharing
Speaker:the stories that change my heart.
Speaker:And I think that's the idea of Our Urban Voices too, that we want to get the voices out there
Speaker:so people can hear how God is changing nations because what is taking place literally, the
Speaker:United Nation is in NYC.
Speaker:Come on, right.
Speaker:So you have these things right here for a reason.
Speaker:And then our job is to step in.
Speaker:So what makes urban ministry an important part of reaching nations?
Speaker:I think that because God is moving in that direction, that God is doing many things,
Speaker:but in this time right now, the season that we are in, I think that's what God is doing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:When you talk about like, the modern missionary movement since really William Carey, they
Speaker:talked about three major eras, you know, to the coastlands that kind of coincided with
Speaker:colonization and then they were to the inlands of people like Hudson Taylor would be a symbol
Speaker:of that, contextualization became important.
Speaker:Then you saw over the last 50 years, the rise of understanding of just not geography, but
Speaker:also distinct people groups and languages and how many would be hidden still.
Speaker:It does seem like we're moving into a fourth era of missions where all those other things
Speaker:are still realities, but we are becoming so globalized and urbanized and transnational
Speaker:that we have got to kind of raise up what what is ministry look like in this new era
Speaker:and figure that out.
Speaker:Yes, exactly.
Speaker:You have said much better than I would have been able to achieve that so well.
Speaker:And I think that's precisely why we need to serve, we need to share this.
Speaker:The conversation we are having, I hope somebody hears this and God moves his or her heart
Speaker:at the end of this.
Speaker:I heard, you know that, I'm sure you know this guy, he wrote, right, friend, I consider
Speaker:him a friend.
Speaker:He's a missiologist, and he wrote this book and he calls it "Urban Jungle."
Speaker:He gives the idea of urban jungles that we live in, in those days primitive you know,
Speaker:jungles you will go there and talk to those people and do the thing.
Speaker:But now we live in urban jungle.
Speaker:Because these are...this is the place where we need to invest and you don't need the...maybe
Speaker:the methodology has changed.
Speaker:Now we need what we're looking at is maybe we need to put people in the financial district
Speaker:where they are rubbing shoulders with with men and women who are pursuing a different
Speaker:God.
Speaker:We need to pursue God.
Speaker:That same thing, with just as it is important to talk to Muslim persons in Brooklyn or somewhere
Speaker:else.
Speaker:Or a Hindu person in Jackson Heights or a Sikh person, same thing.
Speaker:I think it's true for those folks who are considered 1%.
Speaker:They need Jesus too.
Speaker:And where are they?
Speaker:They are in the cities.
Speaker:Talk real quick about the uniqueness of Muslim ministry in the urban context and the importance
Speaker:of understanding the urban context for reaching Muslims.
Speaker:I think when you have, it goes back to what you are talking about, God is bringing people
Speaker:here, right?
Speaker:And whatever I see, whether I'm looking at Bombay or London or New York City, of course...Detroit...we
Speaker:are seeing a large number of Muslims coming together.
Speaker:And why do they come together?
Speaker:Because of course, if I'm coming from Pakistan and I look for a Pakistani community, why?
Speaker:Well, one, I want the language, culture, food, and then I can even if I'm not well educated,
Speaker:still I'm gonna find something because the businesses are owned by other Muslims.
Speaker:And so if the Muslim person comes, that's where they going to go, and where they're
Speaker:gonna settle.
Speaker:These folks, when they go back, I had the same conversation with a couple of other guests
Speaker:on the podcast.
Speaker:And the idea was when these Muslim people come to Christ, then that they will hear the
Speaker:first time here, because back home, they're not allowed to talk about Jesus.
Speaker:Evangelism is forbidden, discussing spiritual matters, discussing Jesus is forbidden.
Speaker:Yes, Jesus is a prophet.
Speaker:Yes, as a good man.
Speaker:Yes, you better believe in Jesus, but not believe Him as Savior because you don't need
Speaker:a savior.
Speaker:Why you don't need to?
Speaker:You don't have a original sin.
Speaker:You have original forgiveness.
Speaker:All these things are part of their culture, part of their lives.
Speaker:And it doesn't make sense to them when Christians are living in awful circumstances in a majority
Speaker:Muslim world.
Speaker:Why should I even consider Christianity?
Speaker:But when they come here, it's an open door, they see differently.
Speaker:There is a liberty to think, to speak, which I'm very grateful for.
Speaker:May the Lord continue to bless American and help America to be that leader in freedom
Speaker:of speach, and all that.
Speaker:But this is an important point.
Speaker:In all these conversations, when these folks hear about Christ, and they go back to the
Speaker:country, even if they are here, just putting gas in New Jersey, almost every people who
Speaker:put gas in your car [in New Jersey are immigrants], even if they have that job, but back home,
Speaker:they are treated like
Speaker:royalty.
Speaker:Yes, exactly.
Speaker:So there people want to listen to them.
Speaker:They are the boss.
Speaker:Whether that is because of "this guy made it to the best country in the world" and therefore,
Speaker:or maybe, like my dad, would host every person coming from America in the hope that one day,
Speaker:this person will help his children to get to America.
Speaker:It didn't materialize in that, but hope was there.
Speaker:So whatever reason they will treat him like "ooooh, he's here!"
Speaker:and this is a universal truth in third world country.
Speaker:They want good for their children.
Speaker:So they make these connections, but these connections allow them to hear from the person.
Speaker:And I think these things are making a difference.
Speaker:I heard stories from you how...actually it would be nice for you to share that story,
Speaker:where you found out about this Muslim in this Muslim tribe, Muslim country in a small tribe,
Speaker:this guy came to Christ at Heart for Muslims and then he ended up planting a church and
Speaker:leading that.
Speaker:So stories like this.
Speaker:These are becoming a norm now of getting more and more these kind of stories that people
Speaker:are going back in their countries.
Speaker:It's not like you have to convince people of this strategy, is just something they are
Speaker:doing.
Speaker:And so it's planting yourself where these influences flowing from the cities and the
Speaker:communication channels back to the least reached areas and peoples of the world.
Speaker:It is happening and we're learning more and more each day as it naturally happens.
Speaker:I know most of your guests here on Our Urban Voices are Christian, not all of them.
Speaker:Why do you think it's important to talk about things like South Asian dance and skiing in
Speaker:a sari or the sport of cricket as part of the podcast's overall emphasis on Urban Ministry?
Speaker:Well, think this way.
Speaker:People are....people groups are defined not just by their language (just their language),
Speaker:but also their tradition, what makes them that group, right, what they do, what they
Speaker:eat, what they wear.
Speaker:And those things are in-ways to connecting people, so when you see a sari, if you are
Speaker:somewhere, let's say in South Dakota, and suddenly somebody is in sari, immediately
Speaker:you know that oh, that's not, Oh, wow, that's different.
Speaker:That sari person represents a whole people.
Speaker:For our listeners, waht is a sari?
Speaker:Oh, a sari is a outfit that women wear in India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, even in Pakistan.
Speaker:So...say a woman's outfit...a dress for women.
Speaker:So simple thing like that.
Speaker:It just unique is different.
Speaker:But that's how most people in India dress.
Speaker:Most women.
Speaker:But that's also a good place where we talk about difference, but also something that
Speaker:is unique and that brings us together.
Speaker:And when we bring a person who is talking about culture, I think culture allows us to
Speaker:talk about their urban, because these things are dance, for example.
Speaker:We had somebody who that's what they do, dance.
Speaker:Punjabi, Bengali, that kind of dance because that's part of culture.
Speaker:Music brings people together; sports bring people together.
Speaker:So whatever brings people together that allows us to have conversations, even spiritual conversations
Speaker:in those gatherings.
Speaker:So when we bring people together, we are looking from these different backgrounds, whether
Speaker:that's based on sari or dance or cricket.
Speaker:We're looking at what connects people, what unites people...there's so much hatred, so
Speaker:much hatred, but is there a way to call them and say "hey, you, you do you do love to cricket?"
Speaker:"oh yeah, I do".
Speaker:You look at like all the people going to a baseball game.
Speaker:And they are just having fun and they come out like "hi, yeah, I was so excited".
Speaker:They don't know each other.
Speaker:But because of that, now they're connected, they have that communication, and in all that,
Speaker:we hear their hearts.
Speaker:We are able to hear their voices, their problems, their challenges, what they love what they
Speaker:don't.
Speaker:I think that's one of the reasons why we can make these voices because all of these cultural
Speaker:things we do, and habits and rituals, we have, all of this makes us human and connects us
Speaker:as equal.
Speaker:So Urban Voices is not just like, all I'm gonna do is, I'm gonna sit here and talk about
Speaker:Bible.
Speaker:No, I want to hear other people.
Speaker:What makes them excited about God, or creation, or as a community what is is that any in-way?
Speaker:Is there a way that I can start to come in communication?
Speaker:Is there a way that probably can become a point of conversation?
Speaker:If the person likes, likes cricket, for me if I want to reach out to a Hindu person or
Speaker:a Muslim person, that's the place, that's my in-way.
Speaker:Cultural cues, symbols, dresses, all those things open up door, they're just begging
Speaker:you to ask what is this?
Speaker:And so you as a Christian, they started the conversation for you by wearing something
Speaker:and being distinctive around, what is it that you're playing?
Speaker:What are you wearing?
Speaker:And then you're able to go wow, tell me more about your story.
Speaker:Because you're interested in their story, they're gonna show interest in your story
Speaker:as well.
Speaker:And that's really kind of get into deeper, deeper levels of conversation.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Life.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:As we begin closing out this episode, is there anything else you'd like to add to this conversation?
Speaker:Yes, I do.
Speaker:Actually, I think there are way too many things that divide us.
Speaker:Way too many.
Speaker:I mean, you can simple thing um, I have iPhone right here, it's the older version.
Speaker:And yet yesterday I had a good friend, because he has an Android and he was like, oh, man,
Speaker:this iPhone is this and that.
Speaker:He's just going on and on of that.
Speaker:So small things divide us.
Speaker:Small thing.
Speaker:Churches are the same way.
Speaker:The world is same way.
Speaker:It's the whole world is divided over things.
Speaker:But there is...there's always in the middle, in the midst of this old division that divided
Speaker:there's so many things, right?
Speaker:But they are always these small little things that unite us.
Speaker:And I think that is what I'm hoping that Urban Voices will share.
Speaker:Perhaps people, those who live outside the city, need to hear something from that voice.
Speaker:Whether it's a Muslim voice, voice of a church planter, or voice of a Hindu girl who loves
Speaker:dance and sharing her cultural background, I don't know what it is, rather there's gotta
Speaker:be something that will connect us whether it's the love for music, dance, cricket.
Speaker:It's love for people for me.
Speaker:If we think about Heart for Muslims, it is my unique experiences that God led me to.
Speaker:So that's what I'm hoping...that's the only thing I want to add, that there are so many
Speaker:things that divide us, but there are very few things that unite us and if we could,
Speaker:if we could come along and just pinpoint those and bring that voice a little.
Speaker:Turn that voice a little bit louder.
Speaker:So people can hear out loud about "okay, yeah, that something" so that's something that Urban
Speaker:Voices is doing.
Speaker:It's just turning the volume a little bit and putting the spotlight on those uniting
Speaker:things.
Speaker:I'm not...this show is not about dismissing the awful things that are happening all around,
Speaker:it's not to dismiss those things.
Speaker:But it's something always that can unite.
Speaker:That's the focus.
Speaker:We just putting the focus on what unites us,
Speaker:It's easy to hate people you don't know.
Speaker:But when you hear [and] have relationships, hear stories of people even if they have totally
Speaker:different cultures, you're gonna find something you resonate with with everyone and that brings
Speaker:us together.
Speaker:Hey Alfonse, if listeners want to get in touch with you or find your books, what are the
Speaker:easiest ways for them to do that?
Speaker:So right here on when you send us a text or email or anything through Our Urban Voice's
Speaker:website, Twitter, Facebook, it comes to us; it will come to the staff and eventually to
Speaker:me.
Speaker:But you can always just search my name and you will find either you can connect with
Speaker:me through Twitter, regularly I tweet.
Speaker:Then you can also connect with me through our...if it's official capacity, if it's a
Speaker:conference or a show or anything like that.
Speaker:We have information on on my personal website, alfonsejaved.com.
Speaker:Also on that same website, you can find my books.
Speaker:Alfonsejaved.com.
Speaker:Great, and I know you said a lot of heavy urban things.
Speaker:And I was one of your first guests on this podcast, and you said "hey, I want you to
Speaker:tell a joke."
Speaker:You want me to tell you a joke!
Speaker:I had no idea, I wasn't ready.
Speaker:Didn't have my dad jokes ready, but you've been prepared.
Speaker:So to close this out, tell us a good joke.
Speaker:Okay, my joke is super simple, easy one.
Speaker:This is my joke from 16 years ago, when I met my wife and she's...I don't know why she
Speaker:said this.
Speaker:But it's our inside joke, and it's like doesn't make sense.
Speaker:But it's a good joke.
Speaker:So Knock knock?
Speaker:Who's there?
Speaker:Orange.
Speaker:Orange who?
Speaker:Orange juice.
Speaker:*silence*
Speaker:I have no clue.
Speaker:That's the joke.
Speaker:She laughs.
Speaker:I hope somebody else finds that amusing.
Speaker:And now my boys laugh on that one too.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:You see, you're disappointed.
Speaker:I know.
Speaker:I know.
Speaker:But that's the joke.
Speaker:That's good.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:Well, thank you so much for being on your own show, Alfonse Javed.
Speaker:Again, I'm Chris Klieman.
Speaker:That was your host, pastor and our author Dr. Alfonse Javed.
Speaker:Thank you to all our listeners.
Speaker:We truly could not do this without you.
Speaker:If you learn something, have a suggested topic for us to cover, or would like to leave us
Speaker:feedback, drop us a note at or oururbanvoices.com.
Speaker:That's oururbanvoices.com.
Speaker:Be sure to subscribe to the show.
Speaker:Leave an honest review wherever you listen to your podcast and tune in next week because
Speaker:Alfonse is back as a guest.
Speaker:I'll be hosting him as well as we talk about his perspective on Muslim ministry.
